According to an investigation by CBC’s The Fifth Estate, musician and icon Buffy Sainte-Marie may not be who she claims to be.
Anishinaabekwe musician ShoShona Kish and Cree writer Michelle Good join host Elamin Abdelmahmoud to share their reactions and reflections following the latest reports about the trailblazer’s ancestry.
We’ve included some highlights below, edited for length and clarity. For the full discussion, listen and follow the Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud podcast, on your favourite podcast player.
LISTEN | Today’s episode now available on YouTube:
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Elamin: ShoShona, you’re speaking to us from Spain. You’re at a global music conference with Indigenous musicians from all over the world, including many from this country. If you don’t mind taking me to that moment for you, when you first heard that this story was going to come out.
ShoShona: I think that for all of us — perhaps this hit really hard for me — I think my first feeling was panic on behalf of our community, because Buffy has been such a North star for us in so many ways. I think that we’re all moving in the world, in some way, as beneficiaries of the work and trailblazing that she’s done. So, I think that it really shook me up. A friend of mine asked me how is this hitting, and I was like, “I think it’s somewhere around an eight on the Richter scale for me.”
Elamin: Oh, wow. Panic is an interesting word, because it evokes a sort of full body response in a way — the idea that all of your senses have to respond to this thing…. Michelle, how do you feel taking all of this in?
Michelle: You know, when the whispers first started just before the release of The Fifth Estate story, the only way I could describe how I felt was heartsick because as we’ve heard, Buffy is Buffy. She’s this icon. She’s a woman who broke down barriers for Indigenous people, as well as being somebody that we could look to as an example and as encouragement that we, too, could strive and succeed in whatever areas that we chose, in a world that tries to reject us regularly and historically. And I continue to feel heartsick and sad in many ways. Sad mostly for our people, but also sad for Buffy in the sense that, what has moved her to make these decisions over the course of her life? She’s 82 years old…. Did this have to come out at this time? Did it have to come out in this way? Who is benefiting from this approach to, basically, deconstruct this very important person?
But the one thing that I really want to say is that I think people are responding as though the whole thing was a lie, that all of the feelings I had about Buffy are now debunked or taken away, and they’re not. When you stood in a concert with Buffy going wild with her amazing music and her amazing presentation, your feeling was real. You don’t have to give up that feeling that you had. You don’t have to give up your admiration for the talent and for the encouragement that she gave Indigenous people. Now, Buffy has some work to do in terms of sorting all of this out, but we don’t. We can still have those feelings. We don’t have to choose to be hurt by this.
WATCH | The Fifth Estate investigates Buffy Sainte-Marie’s claims to Indigenous ancestry:
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Elamin: I’m hearing from both of you, I think, this struggle in navigating that in this particular instance, is this something that you would want to know versus not want to know? And I think on balance, to me, one would do the story, because if one comes to you and says that one of the North stars of Indigenous artistry in this country, their claim to Indigenous ancestry raises some questions — that’s worth investigating. I think in terms of the approach, I’ve heard from a lot of Indigenous people who’ve said they feel that the approach was not the right one. I’m aware that we are on CBC, but I’m not even necessarily speaking for the corporation here. I’m just curious myself about how do you treat something that has this magnitude in a sensitive way? How do you feel it should have been approached?
ShoShona: Well, I think that I’ll preface this with a teaching I’ve received from my mother and has evolved in my own ability to understand it. But the word for “truth” in Anishinaabemowin is debwe. And what my mom says is that you cannot have facts without kindness and call it “truth.” I think that this has such great consequence for us as a collective, as Indigenous people and as Canadians. I would have expected The Fifth Estate to not treat it like tabloid television. I felt like I was watching TMZ or something. I didn’t see the objectivity; I didn’t see the different points of view, the different paths of facts presented in a way that would allow the audience to assess and decide for themselves. What I saw was this exposé, and I felt like it had very little sense of responsibility to that which I would hold The Fifth Estate to in terms of investigative journalism. I was offended.
I think that I’m not interested in having a conversation about whether Buffy is Indigenous, honestly, because she was adopted in cultural protocol by the Piapot First Nation. We are sovereign nations, and we can decide our own citizenship. So maybe we’re talking about whether Buffy was honest with us about her origin stories, but we’re not talking about her Indigeneity because that part is very clear, and leadership from that community and her family from that community have made that clear to us.
Michelle: I find I have to disagree with that point just a little bit, no offense. I agree 100% that this is a deeply nuanced situation. Buffy was adopted into that community according to Cree protocol. I’m Cree; I live just next door. And that is valid, and important and true — but that doesn’t make her Indigenous. And that’s a point that Jean Teillet makes in The Fifth Estate, and it’s something that I’ve given a lot of consideration to. It makes her adopted; it makes her a valid, complete and total member of that community. But it doesn’t change whether she is Indigenous or not. If in fact she has no Indigenous blood, she’s not Indigenous — she’s adopted.
In my recent book, Truth Telling: Seven Conversations about Indigenous Life in Canada, I do an analysis of pretendianism and how to maybe give it consideration in light of community protocols. I found this wonderful analogy drawing on the notion of indigenous plants. The Audubon Society defines an indigenous plant as a plant that existed in North America prior to European colonization. They also define a naturalized plant as a plant that has been welcomed into the ecosystem without doing any harm. And then they define the invasive species, which are the species that have come and are destroying the ecosystem. And so in following that analogy, the adoption of Buffy makes her naturalized — makes her welcomed, makes her a part of the ecosystem — but does not make her Indigenous. And I think that’s really challenging, and an expression of how nuanced this question is, because she can’t be simply rejected as having a place in the Indigenous world because of those protocols and because she was welcomed and adopted according to those protocols. But it doesn’t make her Indigenous. And as Jean Teillet said, could she have done this without having done it in redface? And I think that’s an important question. But I also think, is the question really answered? Has she had the opportunity to say, “This is why I signed the marriage certificate”? How many of us have just signed something because we needed to get something done? I think more information needs to come forward, and I felt that The Fifth Estate fell down by not having her present in the conversation.
Elamin: I do have to say that Buffy Sainte-Marie is refuting The Fifth Estate’s allegations, and it’s my understanding that The Fifth Estate reached out to Buffy and they did not receive a comment back. And so when she released that video, that was the first time that she was responding to some of the content that was in this. Michelle, that analogy is really powerful.
I’m going to ask both of you a question. You both know Buffy personally. Let’s imagine she’s listening to this conversation right now. Is there something that you want to tell her that you’re comfortable saying here?
Michelle: That’s definitely a tough question. I guess I just want to say that I wish her peace and some way of coming through this that is not hurtful to her or to the Indigenous population.
Elamin: ShoShona, what about you?
ShoShona: Well, I think that I would say, Buffy, we love you and your legacy is safe with us.
Michelle: Yes.
Elamin: I think that is a perfect place to leave it. ShoShona, Michelle, I appreciate both of you being here.
You can listen to the full discussion from today’s show on CBC Listen or on our podcast, Commotion with Elamin Abdelmahmoud, available wherever you get your podcasts.
Panel produced by Jess Low.
